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	<title>Comments on: In Search of an R.</title>
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	<link>http://www.game-ism.com/2009/01/06/in-search-of-an-r/</link>
	<description>game critique. game design. game development. game culture.</description>
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		<title>By: Maddy</title>
		<link>http://www.game-ism.com/2009/01/06/in-search-of-an-r/comment-page-1/#comment-8776</link>
		<dc:creator>Maddy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jun 2009 19:09:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.game-ism.com/?p=424#comment-8776</guid>
		<description>Maa, Spitfire, you’ve goaded me to go in depth with this article (in addition to “Where’s the original Sin?”). Please bear with me:

Yes, it is as you say:  The “old mindset” that you spoke of is preventing this fledgling (but legitimate) industry from maturing into an entertainment for all ages. And, yes, the word “Adult” still inspires the impression of excessive pornography and violence. 

But I think the problem that the ESRB has mainly lies with their naming system, as you implied. For movies, they have a plethora of ratings: G, PG, PG-13, R, NC-17, etc. The gaming industry, to my knowledge, only has three:  E, T, and M (AO, as you said, is synonymous to death for the industry). Not only is that severely limiting, but it has also struck me as nonsensical for a while now. Again, this is due to the mindset that videogames are kids’ entertainment only—and this is, indeed, a serious problem. But I do not think that the ESRB is rendered powerless by it. 

Instead of inactivity, they should begin to introduce the fact that videogames can be played by anyone by giving themselves more ratings. They may not reverse the “old mindset,” but they can definitely warm it up to such an idea.

The other issue I have is also something you mentioned. The cowardice the gaming industry has to defend both the art and the narrative is inexcusable. It is a senseless fear these game designers have (even if it is mostly financially-based). Videogames are a legitimate form of art that is made even better by the fact that is an interactive industry. Designers have a valid argument, and they should be willing to defend it with zeal. And they would find that they would be supported—the fan base that the industry has is large and ever-growing.

In summary:
1. You are right that the ESRB are allies, but they have to be willing to foster the growth of the industries they protect.
2. The fight will have to be take up by  both the writers/designers and their fans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maa, Spitfire, you’ve goaded me to go in depth with this article (in addition to “Where’s the original Sin?”). Please bear with me:</p>
<p>Yes, it is as you say:  The “old mindset” that you spoke of is preventing this fledgling (but legitimate) industry from maturing into an entertainment for all ages. And, yes, the word “Adult” still inspires the impression of excessive pornography and violence. </p>
<p>But I think the problem that the ESRB has mainly lies with their naming system, as you implied. For movies, they have a plethora of ratings: G, PG, PG-13, R, NC-17, etc. The gaming industry, to my knowledge, only has three:  E, T, and M (AO, as you said, is synonymous to death for the industry). Not only is that severely limiting, but it has also struck me as nonsensical for a while now. Again, this is due to the mindset that videogames are kids’ entertainment only—and this is, indeed, a serious problem. But I do not think that the ESRB is rendered powerless by it. </p>
<p>Instead of inactivity, they should begin to introduce the fact that videogames can be played by anyone by giving themselves more ratings. They may not reverse the “old mindset,” but they can definitely warm it up to such an idea.</p>
<p>The other issue I have is also something you mentioned. The cowardice the gaming industry has to defend both the art and the narrative is inexcusable. It is a senseless fear these game designers have (even if it is mostly financially-based). Videogames are a legitimate form of art that is made even better by the fact that is an interactive industry. Designers have a valid argument, and they should be willing to defend it with zeal. And they would find that they would be supported—the fan base that the industry has is large and ever-growing.</p>
<p>In summary:<br />
1. You are right that the ESRB are allies, but they have to be willing to foster the growth of the industries they protect.<br />
2. The fight will have to be take up by  both the writers/designers and their fans.</p>
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		<title>By: TheZombieMan</title>
		<link>http://www.game-ism.com/2009/01/06/in-search-of-an-r/comment-page-1/#comment-8770</link>
		<dc:creator>TheZombieMan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 05:02:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.game-ism.com/?p=424#comment-8770</guid>
		<description>sadly no were no where close to adult games were probally gonna have developers holding back excessive violent and/or sexual content for a while probally until like you said a generation of hardcore gamers in the seats of the esrb now aoccupied by stuffy old white people</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sadly no were no where close to adult games were probally gonna have developers holding back excessive violent and/or sexual content for a while probally until like you said a generation of hardcore gamers in the seats of the esrb now aoccupied by stuffy old white people</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.game-ism.com/2009/01/06/in-search-of-an-r/comment-page-1/#comment-8764</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 03:37:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.game-ism.com/?p=424#comment-8764</guid>
		<description>games also have to have some sort of entertaining element to sell - but lots of movies sell that are bleak and depressing, because they are engaging. If a developer can capture and engage users without seeming childish, immature, or gratuitous, and use the engagement to enhance the delivery of his vision, then we can truly call games art.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>games also have to have some sort of entertaining element to sell &#8211; but lots of movies sell that are bleak and depressing, because they are engaging. If a developer can capture and engage users without seeming childish, immature, or gratuitous, and use the engagement to enhance the delivery of his vision, then we can truly call games art.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.game-ism.com/2009/01/06/in-search-of-an-r/comment-page-1/#comment-8763</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 03:34:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.game-ism.com/?p=424#comment-8763</guid>
		<description>I was just using those two movies as examples, because they were what came to mind. If you dont like them or what I say about them, insert generic gratuitous action movie in for the matrix and some film that you find to contain some sort of meaning, in addition to grotesque or disturbing imagery.



And about video games as art... there are two kinds, as I alluded to above. Just as there are movies for fun (B action movies, for example), there are games for fun. They may have some sort of message or theme or moral, but they were really just there to entertain. And there are films that are directly intended to send a strong message, that are immediately recognizable as being created for the purpose of being art, instead of entertaining and selling tickets. It is entirely possible for the latter to exist in games, though it doesn&#039;t, very much, at the moment.

Films deliver a story and a set of images and sounds to enhance that story. Games are just as capable. Perhaps the gameplay is linear, and the player merely causes the story to progress by completing missions (Call of Duty 1 was great in this respect. Good story, you just played key missions). Instead of augmenting with predetermined sound and image, the viewer actually pulls the trigger. 

Less linear games can develop a system that gets the message across, rather than the filmlike narrative or storyline. Like Fallout. Though you can do [most] things that you would like, the game creates consequences, and it is these consequences that further the &quot;message&quot; of the game, if you want to call it that. Maybe you can become an evil murderer and thief, building your riches from the woes of others and, in the end, being the most powerful force in the greater DC area. It is within the framework that the designers have allowed, so perhaps they meant to show how easily evil can dominate in a post-apocalyptic world. Or you can be the good guy, help everyone out, and obtain power that way - the influence of one kind soul in a barren, lawless wasteland is shown. The system that was designed conveys the &quot;message&quot; (I hesitate to use that word, perhaps &quot;themes&quot; is better?), rather than a narrative.

[ about the word &quot;message&quot; - I dislike using it because they may not have intended some concrete moral to be conveyed, so it merely means whatever the designers wanted you to experience ] 

[ it also may be tough to apply artistic critique to current games without seeming silly; thats because I don&#039;t think theyve been allowed to mature as an art form yet. see above post ]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was just using those two movies as examples, because they were what came to mind. If you dont like them or what I say about them, insert generic gratuitous action movie in for the matrix and some film that you find to contain some sort of meaning, in addition to grotesque or disturbing imagery.</p>
<p>And about video games as art&#8230; there are two kinds, as I alluded to above. Just as there are movies for fun (B action movies, for example), there are games for fun. They may have some sort of message or theme or moral, but they were really just there to entertain. And there are films that are directly intended to send a strong message, that are immediately recognizable as being created for the purpose of being art, instead of entertaining and selling tickets. It is entirely possible for the latter to exist in games, though it doesn&#8217;t, very much, at the moment.</p>
<p>Films deliver a story and a set of images and sounds to enhance that story. Games are just as capable. Perhaps the gameplay is linear, and the player merely causes the story to progress by completing missions (Call of Duty 1 was great in this respect. Good story, you just played key missions). Instead of augmenting with predetermined sound and image, the viewer actually pulls the trigger. </p>
<p>Less linear games can develop a system that gets the message across, rather than the filmlike narrative or storyline. Like Fallout. Though you can do [most] things that you would like, the game creates consequences, and it is these consequences that further the &#8220;message&#8221; of the game, if you want to call it that. Maybe you can become an evil murderer and thief, building your riches from the woes of others and, in the end, being the most powerful force in the greater DC area. It is within the framework that the designers have allowed, so perhaps they meant to show how easily evil can dominate in a post-apocalyptic world. Or you can be the good guy, help everyone out, and obtain power that way &#8211; the influence of one kind soul in a barren, lawless wasteland is shown. The system that was designed conveys the &#8220;message&#8221; (I hesitate to use that word, perhaps &#8220;themes&#8221; is better?), rather than a narrative.</p>
<p>[ about the word "message" - I dislike using it because they may not have intended some concrete moral to be conveyed, so it merely means whatever the designers wanted you to experience ] </p>
<p>[ it also may be tough to apply artistic critique to current games without seeming silly; thats because I don't think theyve been allowed to mature as an art form yet. see above post ]</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.game-ism.com/2009/01/06/in-search-of-an-r/comment-page-1/#comment-8762</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 03:18:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.game-ism.com/?p=424#comment-8762</guid>
		<description>Its almost a self-perpetuating system. Since developers are so worried about accidentally spilling over into AO territory, they can&#039;t fully explore everything they may want to. And one ratings bracket can&#039;t fully describe anything. The Matrix was hardly an &quot;R&quot; film, compared with lots of PG13s that I&#039;ve seen (no blood, hardly any language, no nudity...). Whereas another R film I just watched, A Clockwork Orange, contains something like 3 rape scenes and two sex scenes, several beatings and fights, all from the point of view of a depraved killer who enjoys the acts. 

Lots of action films may be rated &quot;R&quot; but are not &quot;mature,&quot; while true films that explore adult content in a mature fashion are also rated R. Action movie violence is gratuitous, and a lot of the time, I think its just made to sell tickets. Whereas mature films explore the areas without being gratuitous; A Clockwork Orange has the scenes for a reason.

Filmmakers are allowed to explore these themes because its very difficult to spill out of the &quot;R&quot; bucket; they don&#039;t risk not being sold, published, or shown. They don&#039;t (anymore) risk bad press. Games, on the otherhand, are limited. They cannot explore the themes in a complete and mature fashion, and games that try to end up sacrificing to stay publishable in the &quot;M&quot; category. And because they are not allowed the depth of exploration, what they do contain seems immature, childish, or even gratuitous - because it isn&#039;t allowed to exist in completion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its almost a self-perpetuating system. Since developers are so worried about accidentally spilling over into AO territory, they can&#8217;t fully explore everything they may want to. And one ratings bracket can&#8217;t fully describe anything. The Matrix was hardly an &#8220;R&#8221; film, compared with lots of PG13s that I&#8217;ve seen (no blood, hardly any language, no nudity&#8230;). Whereas another R film I just watched, A Clockwork Orange, contains something like 3 rape scenes and two sex scenes, several beatings and fights, all from the point of view of a depraved killer who enjoys the acts. </p>
<p>Lots of action films may be rated &#8220;R&#8221; but are not &#8220;mature,&#8221; while true films that explore adult content in a mature fashion are also rated R. Action movie violence is gratuitous, and a lot of the time, I think its just made to sell tickets. Whereas mature films explore the areas without being gratuitous; A Clockwork Orange has the scenes for a reason.</p>
<p>Filmmakers are allowed to explore these themes because its very difficult to spill out of the &#8220;R&#8221; bucket; they don&#8217;t risk not being sold, published, or shown. They don&#8217;t (anymore) risk bad press. Games, on the otherhand, are limited. They cannot explore the themes in a complete and mature fashion, and games that try to end up sacrificing to stay publishable in the &#8220;M&#8221; category. And because they are not allowed the depth of exploration, what they do contain seems immature, childish, or even gratuitous &#8211; because it isn&#8217;t allowed to exist in completion.</p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://www.game-ism.com/2009/01/06/in-search-of-an-r/comment-page-1/#comment-8579</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 22:17:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.game-ism.com/?p=424#comment-8579</guid>
		<description>FYI, I&#039;m fairly sure the restriction on the distribution of AO games comes mostly from the sellers.  Major retailers like Best Buy or Gamestop won&#039;t carry AO games.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FYI, I&#8217;m fairly sure the restriction on the distribution of AO games comes mostly from the sellers.  Major retailers like Best Buy or Gamestop won&#8217;t carry AO games.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.game-ism.com/2009/01/06/in-search-of-an-r/comment-page-1/#comment-8543</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 09:03:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.game-ism.com/?p=424#comment-8543</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m aware that the subject is an expansive one but as far as I am concerned the &quot;Can games be art?&quot; question was answered &quot;Yes&quot; for me by Myst. There have been lots of other candidates but that one sticks out for me. No matter how many crappy action movies get churned out, no one would seriously contend that films can&#039;t be art, so I feel that the games question is moot. Another good example is the many pages on this site devoted to interpretations of Portal!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m aware that the subject is an expansive one but as far as I am concerned the &#8220;Can games be art?&#8221; question was answered &#8220;Yes&#8221; for me by Myst. There have been lots of other candidates but that one sticks out for me. No matter how many crappy action movies get churned out, no one would seriously contend that films can&#8217;t be art, so I feel that the games question is moot. Another good example is the many pages on this site devoted to interpretations of Portal!</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.game-ism.com/2009/01/06/in-search-of-an-r/comment-page-1/#comment-8536</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 04:13:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.game-ism.com/?p=424#comment-8536</guid>
		<description>You know, this article made me appreciate Hideo Kojima a lot more. Yes his plots are extremely convoluted, but I feel it is as a necessity to draw forward human emotion. The metal gear solid saga had a lot to do about war, but most great war movies are R-rated. To do what he did with as little breathing room as he had, I think it was a superb job. I think it is unfortunate just how many good games/stories the current ratings system affects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, this article made me appreciate Hideo Kojima a lot more. Yes his plots are extremely convoluted, but I feel it is as a necessity to draw forward human emotion. The metal gear solid saga had a lot to do about war, but most great war movies are R-rated. To do what he did with as little breathing room as he had, I think it was a superb job. I think it is unfortunate just how many good games/stories the current ratings system affects.</p>
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		<title>By: Skye</title>
		<link>http://www.game-ism.com/2009/01/06/in-search-of-an-r/comment-page-1/#comment-8535</link>
		<dc:creator>Skye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 15:05:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.game-ism.com/?p=424#comment-8535</guid>
		<description>A lot of good points and I know I have commented on this topic before from a political angle.  I was sitting in the waiting room while my tires were being rotated the other day, playing my DS and there was a 24 hour news station on.  (I think it was MSNBC)  I was seriously disturbed by what they were reporting on and how they were reporting it.  It was trivial shit that they were dramatizing and blowing out of proportion.  

That brings up my main point.  With the general stereotype that video games = kids that exists right now an adult game will get no traction just a lot of bad press and parasitic politicians holding it up as a prime example of the decline of western civilization and how &quot;we must protect the children&quot; from things of that nature.  

The media would pounce on a true &quot;restricted&quot; game and stir up so much unnecessary controversy that it would never reach the market.  No video game developer or publisher would want that albatross hanging around their neck.  The main stream video game audience is still pretty &quot;young.&quot;  Around thirty years of age average.  As a generation we are just finally getting into places of power and influence.  I would argue that in 5-10 years we will start seeing more &quot;restricted&quot; games because the market will have aged and will demand it, and the tone of the press and the politicians will be different because they won&#039;t be outsiders to gaming.

Another point is that our own media needs to mature also.  It has started already with games being reviewed in &quot;respectable&quot; news sources, but our own core media still comes off as juvenile.  That doesn&#039;t help the image of a maturing industry or gaming demographic.

As for the ESRB rating system, what they really need is a better awareness campaign.  I also agree that they need to be refined.  I remember when Gremlins and Temple of Doom being the cause of the PG-13 rating.   (Dated myself there)  There was no question about what it meant.  The public had a great awareness of the system.  That awareness doesn&#039;t really exist with general public right now.  

As an industry, video game developers and publishers have shackled themselves to this scale and have developed the perception that AO games are insta-death.  There is no profit to be gained right now, just a lot of bad publicity.  It would be like standing on a rifle range with a big target on your chest.  It isn&#039;t a defensible position for those companies so why should they do it.  I hate to link it to profit margin, but until a case can be made for a &quot;restricted&quot; game where the profit (both financially and publicity-wise) outweights the cost the industry as a whole won&#039;t move in that direction.  

If I could make a request, I would like to see your more detailed thoughts on Games = Art.  I wrestle with that topic quite a bit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lot of good points and I know I have commented on this topic before from a political angle.  I was sitting in the waiting room while my tires were being rotated the other day, playing my DS and there was a 24 hour news station on.  (I think it was MSNBC)  I was seriously disturbed by what they were reporting on and how they were reporting it.  It was trivial shit that they were dramatizing and blowing out of proportion.  </p>
<p>That brings up my main point.  With the general stereotype that video games = kids that exists right now an adult game will get no traction just a lot of bad press and parasitic politicians holding it up as a prime example of the decline of western civilization and how &#8220;we must protect the children&#8221; from things of that nature.  </p>
<p>The media would pounce on a true &#8220;restricted&#8221; game and stir up so much unnecessary controversy that it would never reach the market.  No video game developer or publisher would want that albatross hanging around their neck.  The main stream video game audience is still pretty &#8220;young.&#8221;  Around thirty years of age average.  As a generation we are just finally getting into places of power and influence.  I would argue that in 5-10 years we will start seeing more &#8220;restricted&#8221; games because the market will have aged and will demand it, and the tone of the press and the politicians will be different because they won&#8217;t be outsiders to gaming.</p>
<p>Another point is that our own media needs to mature also.  It has started already with games being reviewed in &#8220;respectable&#8221; news sources, but our own core media still comes off as juvenile.  That doesn&#8217;t help the image of a maturing industry or gaming demographic.</p>
<p>As for the ESRB rating system, what they really need is a better awareness campaign.  I also agree that they need to be refined.  I remember when Gremlins and Temple of Doom being the cause of the PG-13 rating.   (Dated myself there)  There was no question about what it meant.  The public had a great awareness of the system.  That awareness doesn&#8217;t really exist with general public right now.  </p>
<p>As an industry, video game developers and publishers have shackled themselves to this scale and have developed the perception that AO games are insta-death.  There is no profit to be gained right now, just a lot of bad publicity.  It would be like standing on a rifle range with a big target on your chest.  It isn&#8217;t a defensible position for those companies so why should they do it.  I hate to link it to profit margin, but until a case can be made for a &#8220;restricted&#8221; game where the profit (both financially and publicity-wise) outweights the cost the industry as a whole won&#8217;t move in that direction.  </p>
<p>If I could make a request, I would like to see your more detailed thoughts on Games = Art.  I wrestle with that topic quite a bit.</p>
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		<title>By: Amauriel</title>
		<link>http://www.game-ism.com/2009/01/06/in-search-of-an-r/comment-page-1/#comment-8527</link>
		<dc:creator>Amauriel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 05:17:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.game-ism.com/?p=424#comment-8527</guid>
		<description>I think that you are on the money with this, in a couple of ways.

First, games are not perceived as art by the general public, definitely not in the way that films would be.  It makes me sad, as I can appreciate some games much more than I can some films (that would be considered art).

Second, the ratings system we have in place is not only not handled well and is not able to fit our games into the categories well, it is also misunderstood by a large portion of the general public.  People don&#039;t &quot;get&quot; what an &quot;M&quot; or &quot;T&quot; is.  They are looking for a &quot;PG&quot; or &quot;R&quot;.

Thirdly, the general public (over 30) still see games as what they were 20 years ago.  People don&#039;t own a Wii, they own a &quot;Nintendo&quot;.  Every game system is called a PlayStation, in the same way that all adhesive medical strips are called Band-Aids.  I work in a K-12 school and I am repeatedly amazed by the comments that I get when I say that I spent my evenings playing games by the teachers and staff. (Usually something either like &quot;But those are for kids...you&#039;re a grown woman!&quot; or &quot;Are you into shooting hookers?&quot;  or &quot;No wonder you don&#039;t have kids yet...you are too busy being one yourself!&quot; I&#039;m serious here.)  Games are not something that people see as a hobby...it&#039;s something they see as a toy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that you are on the money with this, in a couple of ways.</p>
<p>First, games are not perceived as art by the general public, definitely not in the way that films would be.  It makes me sad, as I can appreciate some games much more than I can some films (that would be considered art).</p>
<p>Second, the ratings system we have in place is not only not handled well and is not able to fit our games into the categories well, it is also misunderstood by a large portion of the general public.  People don&#8217;t &#8220;get&#8221; what an &#8220;M&#8221; or &#8220;T&#8221; is.  They are looking for a &#8220;PG&#8221; or &#8220;R&#8221;.</p>
<p>Thirdly, the general public (over 30) still see games as what they were 20 years ago.  People don&#8217;t own a Wii, they own a &#8220;Nintendo&#8221;.  Every game system is called a PlayStation, in the same way that all adhesive medical strips are called Band-Aids.  I work in a K-12 school and I am repeatedly amazed by the comments that I get when I say that I spent my evenings playing games by the teachers and staff. (Usually something either like &#8220;But those are for kids&#8230;you&#8217;re a grown woman!&#8221; or &#8220;Are you into shooting hookers?&#8221;  or &#8220;No wonder you don&#8217;t have kids yet&#8230;you are too busy being one yourself!&#8221; I&#8217;m serious here.)  Games are not something that people see as a hobby&#8230;it&#8217;s something they see as a toy.</p>
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